Possible Proof Of Simulated Universe. [Repost]

From a series of articles on the topic.

The original post ..

https://old.rip/2025/10/31/simu-a012-_-possible-proof-of-simulated-universe/

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To share the idea of possible proof about us living in a simulated universe I’m posting here a public conversation copied from the website of Michel Levin ..

Alex Kobold
October 31, 2025
isn’t the bubble-sort unpredicted actions a hint towards the proof of the simulated universe?

Mike Levin
October 31, 2025
hmm, why? and what is specifically the simulated universe claim (as distinct from current neuroscience’s point that our experienced world is a construct of our cognitive processes)?

Alex Kobold
October 31, 2025
because if even the simple code itself is able to act on its own, without the specific lines of code asking to do it, it’s like having the life been programmed into universe all the way down, up to the mathematical rules which we discover. about neuroscience: the discoveries of higher processes are interesting and practical but irrelevant to the question of us being in the simulated program or not, evolving naturally without a program so to say.

Mike Levin
October 31, 2025
I see. Interesting; I suppose, in a sense I agree that an intelligence ratchet (paper coming in a few months) is embedded all the way down, as a free gift of the math. So in a sense, we could say that the physical world is a front end for Platonic space, but I’m not sure if it’s the same thing as people who think our world is inside a computer run by aliens living in a bigger world etc. etc.

Alex Kobold
October 31, 2025
to my knowledge, so far there is no proof for or against the simulated universe, it simply makes sense in terms of probability — if we one day will be able to create simulations with life forms which are aware, and the simulations will be in countless billions, then we must already live in a simulation rather than in a base reality. from your bubble sort example i simply had an idea that perhaps there could be a proof provided, but i don’t know exactly how. it was just an idea which could be wrong.. but if the instinctive thought is correct then this could be a big deal. a step closer to the proof is the fact that a simple code can have a life on its own, thus it is possible to create simulations where parts of it are alive and aware. as a logical conclusion, because life in a program is possible, then by the probability alone we must be in a simulated program rather than not.

Alex Kobold
November 1, 2025
for my comment under a video “isn’t the bubble-sort unpredicted actions a hint towards the proof of the simulated universe?” (exactly the same text as i posted here, with the same grammatical mistakes, submitted at the same time) i got today a response that the bubble sort behavior could be explained by compiler optimizations, CPU runtime optimizations, runtime libraries, or any combination of those. it reminded me that Lee Cronin have said that computer programs cannot be viewed separately from the hardware that runs them, or something similar, in the context of the assembly theory. if the behavior of the bubble sort can be explained by hardware design, then it is a blow to the living/aware programs, but it could be put on test. the bubble sort behavior can be tested on principally differently designed machines, to compare the behaviors.

Mike Levin
November 1, 2025
1) we’re checking that. 2) it would be very interesting if abstraction layers that are supposed to isolate algorithms from the vagaries of how the lower levels are implemented (the whole point of high-level languages and algorithms in general) worked for the sorting aspect but not for the other aspects we found (how does it “know” to only disrupt the clustering and not the sorting itself?); or is the hypothesis that the behavior of bubble sort’s sorting is dependent on compiler optimizations also? That would be a horrible compiler :) 3) if we did find that happening, I think the only thing would change about my conclusions is that instead of very simple short algorithms having unexpected proto-cognitive competencies, more complex ones had those. Admittedly, it’s more fun if it’s a tiny algorithm, but I think the bigger point would stand. 4) We’re now trying this with all sorts of even simpler systems, which would be even more independent of underlying implementation (1D cellular automata for example; we’ll preprint soon). 5) if we do find this happening, I think it wouldn’t “explain” those competencies – still unexpected, still not predicted, from knowing what those systems are supposed to be doing; it would however tell us something about what makes a difference to the intrinsic motivations, which could be interesting.

Alex Kobold
November 2, 2025
thanks Michael for the insight. it makes better sense to me now. even though i’ve done some programming in the past, in ‘basic’, my knowledge of the hardware and lower level codes isn’t strong — no hypothesis from me in this part. you’re right that influence by hardware and lower level codes wouldn’t explain those competencies — still unexpected, still not predicted. no idea why i didn’t see that logic myself )) .. i was almost worried that my boosted belief in high probability of living in a simulated reality must be questioned, but at this point my belief is even stronger in the theory (simulation argument by Nick Bostrom). once i learned about it few years ago, it was almost as a spiritual awakening, being before that a complete atheist. as there is a simulation then there must be creator(s) of the simulation. but i’m open to be awakened back to atheism if a proof is provided. the circulating “proof” that the universe hasn’t enough computational power for being simulated is plain wrong — this argument assumes the simulator is bound by the physical laws of our universe, which doesn’t apply in case of a higher reality.

Mike Levin
November 2, 2025
Just one other comment. I don’t think the simulation hypothesis helps re. the atheism question (and of course, neither does traditional theism), because you’d still have to wonder how the creators of the simulation got there (and how they know they’re not in a simulation themselves, etc. etc.).

/…/

Read the whole conversation ..

https://old.rip/2025/10/31/simu-a012-_-possible-proof-of-simulated-universe/

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